Bill Wathen & Dick Doré

GABE

This is the Dirt Don’t Lie Podcast, unfiltered conversations with Santa Barbara, County wine farmers. I’m Gabe Saglie and on today’s show Dick Doré and Bill Walthen, the Foxen Boys, on the perks of dry farming, the two things that make them just like a married couple, and what does bong water have to do with their Foxen wines anyway? That and much more coming your way right now on Dirt Don’t Lie.Well, for me, certainly it’s a treat to have not just one great Santa Barbara County wine farmer, but two in studio. You know, the Foxen Boys is a term that we love to throw around, but there are personalities behind the term “The Foxen Boys.” Dick Doré, Bill Walthen, welcome to Dirt Don’t Lie. Great to be with you guys.

DICK

Thanks, Gabe.

GABE

Foxen Winery, I mean, synonymous with some of the best wine that Santa Barbara County has to offer and I say that expecting you to stay as modest as you can possibly be. Let’s talk a little bit about this partnership because there are a variety of different partnerships locally speaking, but the two of you stand out to me as one that has been around since what, 1985? And seems to be still flourishing all these years later although I’m assuming there have been ups and downs in the last couple of decades.

DICK

We’ve had our times, but I think what we’ve sort of come at a truce with is that we don’t get in each other’s way.

BILL

We both have Catholic upbringings so we know how to do our penance and believe in forgiveness.

GABE

Yes.

DICK

And Billy knows how to lay guilt, too.

GABE

Oh yeah. We Catholics know that well.

DICK

Yep.

GABE

Your background, Bill, is in viticulture.

BILL

Yes.

GABE

Does that make you a better winemaker?

BILL

I think so. You know, all of my connections here in Santa Barbara County initially, back in the ‘80s, were the viticulturists.

GABE

Yeah.

BILL

Dale Hampton was one of my mentors here. I got to work with him. I got to work with Louis Lucas. I loved that aspect of being in these vineyards and I get to make wine out of that?

GABE

Yeah.

BILL

That’s pretty cool. And you get to do it every year? That’s pretty cool.

GABE

You have to have an intimate relationship with the dirt, I think, to really know where to take it. Now we’ve got five AVAs in Santa Barbara County. I think there’s a movement, at least a couple of more are going to be coming up here in the next couple of years. As this region has become defined that’s allowed you to really sort of expand your portfolio as well. I’m impressed to know that there are 28 different bottlings under the Foxen label. When you hear that are you impressed as well? I mean, all of a sudden here you are with 28 different bottlings.

DICK

Too many.

GABE

Too many you think?

DICK

Too many, but they sell and we like our flavors.

GABE

Yeah. It does allow you to play with different zones within the county though as well. I mean, you’re really dabbling, aside from the estate stuff you do you’ve got your fingers in Sta. Rita Hills and Happy Canyon and Santa Maria. It’s sort of like a painter having a wide palette to choose from.

BILL

It’s so diverse and it’s so exciting to be able to make wine from all those different, diverse sites or situations. Even look at the diversity of just the Sta. Rita Hills.

GABE

Yeah.

BILL

Huge of a difference that is from north to south.

GABE

There are people who say, “Well, you know, it’s already tough for the New York wine consumer to understand that Santa Barbara is not Napa,” or where it is with reference to other California wine growing regions, and as we define these regions more and more, I’m a fan of that, but there are people who might say that sort of complicates things a little bit. Does it allow someone like Bill to make better wines? Does it allow us as consumers to drink in a better way?

DICK

Those that are buying the more expensive wines are more knowledgeable about wine and therefore are into appellations, clones because they want to experiment on that. The French has always been so confusing with their labelling. At least our labeling is pretty concise and you know what the varietal is. Being so site specific is really amazing for Foxen and practically every darn wine we make is single vineyard with the exception of our Santa Barbara County Pinot Noir.

BILL

Isn’t more definition better than less definition?

GABE

I would say so. I love well defined labels, not only the region but the vineyard and the block in that vineyard, those are chapters in the story that is the wine inside the bottle, so to me, maybe it’s the English major in me, but that to me is a story that I’m reading before I even pop the cork or unscrew the cap. Now, are you pro cork, screw cap, or are we still on cork mode here?

BILL

We’re cork.

GABE

You’re cork, yeah.

DICK

We’re a couple of romantic guys.

GABE

Yes, I can tell.

DICK

We like that cork.

BILL

Well, we’ve got to support the cork farmers.

GABE

Yeah, that’s right. That is an industry, absolutely. Dick, your background is genuine Santa Barbara County, tell us a little bit about your family history because it really sort of is part and parcel to the way that this part of the world has grown in the last several centuries it seems.

DICK

My great-great-grandfather was the first settler up in Northern Santa Barbara County back in 1837. I think he immediately settled into our wonderful climate and our wonderful county and my family never left. I mean, we still have the property up in Foxen Canyon. We’ve been stewards the land and it’s quite nice because we’re one of the few families that still possesses part of their original land grants.

GABE

You mentioned stewards of the land, being a viticulturist, being in the wine business that sort of allows you to continue that.

DICK

It’s interesting how our land has progressed, I mean, my great-great-grandfather raised horses, my great-grandfather raised sheep, my grandfather raised cattle, and now it’s grapes on properties, so it just shows the diversity of Santa Barbara County and thank goodness we have been allowed to do this.

GABE

And we talk about 28 different bottlings and, Bill, you couldn’t just get plopped anywhere on the planet and be able to make this kind of diversity to create this kind of portfolio just anywhere. There is something unique about this place that allows you to make that kind of variety and to maintain a quality that is consistently high.

BILL

Well, you look at where we are, you know? Sta. Rita Hills, La EncantadaVineyard, one of the coolest spots in that appellation and then any given morning, especially in August I’ll start out in Happy Canyon and be out at, say, Star Lane for sun up, by 11 o’clock I’m out at La Encantada in the fog and it’s probably 20 degrees cooler.

GABE

Right, right.

BILL

Yeah. And then I’ll go up to Foxen Canyon and it’ll be kind of in between.

GABE

You know, sustainability is definitely part and parcel to the Foxen image and I think a lot of the Foxen philosophy revolves around this concept of sustainability. Why is that so important for the two of you to keep at the forefront as you make wine year after year?

DICK

On our property when we built a new winery we tried to have as little effect on the environment that we possibly could. That’s why our new winery is solar powered, that’s why all the plantings are native plants, very minimal use of water if we have any water available, and then our vineyards are dry-farmed on the property which is pretty much what we have to do because we don’t have the water, it’s not really something of choice. And I think sustainability, whether it be in the vineyard or whether it be the winery operation, is something that really has to be done because the county may think we’re industrial, but we are agricultural.

GABE

The solar powered winery came online, you started making wine out of there in 2010. Does a solar powered winery offer challenges? Does it make your job easier? It certainly fits into the conception here which is to be stewards of this beautiful place.

BILL

Yeah, we’re not burning fuel.

DICK

Last year 85 percent of our power was produced by our solar.

GABE

Wow.

DICK

That’s a situation where we feed most of the year our excess power to PG&E, we gain credits and then we accept those credits in the fall when we’re using a lot of refrigeration and use electricity.

GABE

Yeah. We’re focusing, obviously, on the 2014 vintage. We are coming off of a couple of rather large, very productive vintages, 2012, 2013, gave you a lot of fruit to play with, didn’t it?

BILL

It did and 2014’s looking about the same.

GABE

Yeah.

BILL

Maybe a touch lighter than ’12 and certainly a little bit lighter than ’13, but it’s a little bit crazy to think that at Foxen Canyon we’ve had five inches of rain and then three from the year before, so we’ve had eight inches of rain in almost the last 24 months, to think that there’d be another big crop, three in a row?

GABE

Yeah.

BILL

So, it’s a little magical, but it’s a little bit scary, too, that it’s coming on so fast and the labor situation is not good. There’s not really abundant labor out there. So, everybody is having some issues.

GABE

2012 and 2013 were not necessarily big wet years.

BILL

No.

GABE

This year, 2014, has been defined by what has been a very warm winter and obviously not a lot of rainfall and yet it’s these dry years, although concerning in so many ways, seem to produce not only these larger crops, but also quality crops. I mean, from what I’m hearing 2012 and ’13 are generating some beautiful wines.

BILL

It’s off the chart how the yields and the quality have been just phenomenally large.

GABE

Any hints to as what 2014 might deliver? Are there any varieties that are really demonstrating, doing really well under these conditions?

BILL

Everything looks good.

DICK

Our vineyards that have some sort of irrigation, our dry-farm vineyard is–

GABE

Yeah, Tinaquaic.

DICK

Tinaquaic, yes.

GABE

Which is a Chumash word.

DICK

It is a Chumash word.

GABE

Yeah.

DICK

It’s a Chumash word for bong water.

GABE

Bong water. Ironically that’s what you don’t have there.

BILL

I know.

GABE

As far as water is concerned is what I’m saying, right? What kind of challenges does dry-farming bring? Does it bring sleepless nights?

BILL

No, you can’t do–I mean, it’s what it is. We don’t have water you just farm the vines accordingly. This year we’re having to drop fruit in the name of just making sure that the vines stay healthy and hopefully we do get some rain this year late that we’ll have a normal year next year, so it’s a sacrifice.

GABE

The dry-farm vineyard like that, its source of irrigation is what, probably that morning dew.

BILL

This time of year, yes, but we do rely on the winter rainfall and we adjust our crop level to that winter’s rainfall. But this year with five inches of rain we’re leaving some fruit on some of the more vigorous vines. There’s areas where we’re dropping all the fruit because the shoots just aren’t going to support it.

DICK

This vineyard over the years has produced anywhere from 200 to 800 cases of Chardonnay, that’s six acres. We couldn’t raise our price and lower our price every year depending on our production, so luckily it all sort of averages out over the long run, and some years our grapes may cost 10,000 a ton and the following year they maybe be 3,000, so luckily it–it makes no economic sense, but it makes damn good wine.

GABE

Twenty-eight different bottlings under the Foxen label, 60 percent is Pinot Noir and then it’s amazing to see how many other varieties you’re working with from the Bordeaux and the Italians. You’ve got this beautiful Mourvèdre Rose that you’ve been producing for the last five years or so, that’s a great story and it proves as the T-shirt says that, “Real men do drink pink,” and I do think that Rose’s been in this very steady but clear upswing and certainly in availability and respect from the consumer. Tell me the story about your Rose because there is also a charitable angle to this one, huh?

BILL

There’s a dollar for every bottle that we sell that goes to breast cancer research.

GABE

There was a while there where Rose was sort of swept under the rug by most, “Serious wine drinkers.”

BILL

I think people have discovered that it’s a perfect wine to drink on a summer morning.

GABE

On a summer morning. Isn’t it though? Yeah.

DICK

It’s almost as good [unclear 0:12:46] it.

GABE

Sure, right, yeah. And if you can do both in one morning then you’re a real winner. You use Mourvèdre which is Rhône grapes. What are some of the Italian grapes that you’re really enjoying putting out there?

BILL

Well, Dick grows Sangiovese, so we make a single vineyard Sangiovese off of the Williamson-Doré Vineyard.

DICK

And it’s a Rodino clone and then–

BILL

And then John and Chris Jones, Faith Vineyard grow Sangiovese for us and that goes into our Volpino program, Volpino is an Italian word for “Little Fox,” and that’s primarily a Sangiovese wine with Merlot back blended into it to soften it up a little bit.

GABE

What’s the finickiest grape, I guess, that you work with? What’s the one that year after year you’ve got to be really on top of more than maybe the rest of them?

BILL

Cabernet used to be difficult.

GABE

Yeah.

BILL

We started making Cab in ’85 off Santa Maria Valley grapes, off Rancho Sisquoc and we kind of did this Cabernet holy grail of migration finally into the Santa Ynez Valley into Ballard Canyon and then kind of ended up out in Happy Canyon. Star Lane was planted in the mid-90s, Vogelzang in ’99, I think. Cabernet used to be difficult to make and now the guys really have it down. We buy a lot of fruit off vineyards that are farmed by coastal vineyards here and they really know how to dial it in, they do really good work. Cabernets from Happy Canyon are starting to open up some eyes.

GABE

We’re more than a decade into this AVA, it’s been a slow progression as far as getting the mind share to understand what’s going on with Happy Canyon, but you’re working with a handful of vineyards out there that are really putting out some fantastic fruit like Grassini and Vogelzang and Star Lane, I mean, some of those grapes just make, I would imagine, your job a little bit easier because they’re coming online so beautifully.

BILL

You know, you can just go out into any of those vineyards now and they’re a lot more crowded than they used to be, say, five years ago. There’s a lot of players out there now and that speaks for itself.

DICK

Well, it’s funny, the Mourvèdre, the Rose that you’re having, you know, Vogelzang was having trouble selling their Mourvèdre and Billy had the concept, “Well, let’s make a Rose.” And now, what is there? There’s like five people doing it and we’d like to make more and they’re buying it all.

GABE

Yeah, right, yeah. And what is it about Mourvèdre because you’re making a 100 percent Mourvèdre Rose that lends itself to this type of wine so well?

BILL

The aromatics, wonderful aromatics, and I love that kind of crispy watermelon rind that Mourvèdre gives you.

GABE

Yeah, I’m sold right there.

BILL

The nickname of this wine is “The Watermelon.”

GABE

Several months ago we were–I was talking to winemakers about 2014 and the “F” word kept coming up, “Frost.” Now we’re at a point where it’s the “V” word, “Veraison” which is sort of that hint that grapes are ripening up, colors are coming on as if these grapes are really ripening faster than they probably should be?

BILL

The 2014 vintage has been a pit in my stomach because just from early on, early bud break, no frost, very warm spring. I’m just hoping that it’s going to be as early as, say, mid-August because I don’t want it any sooner than that.

GABE

Yeah.

BILL

It’s pretty hard to get ready in early August to process grapes.

GABE

You say, “Pit in your stomach.” I know that every vintage has its own series nuances and curveballs and sleepless nights, but is it safe to say that 2014 is a particularly worrisome vintage thus far?

BILL

Well, after the 2013 vintage this was one of the most challenging in my 40 years of harvest ever because of the compression issue. I’ve never had to deal with that where you’re doing the same amount or more of fruit, in 2012 we did that in 11 weeks and we did more than that in seven weeks in 2013, so it was a nightmare space wise.

GABE

Dick, do you let Bill take on all that anxiety or do you share in some of those concerns as well?

DICK

I let Bill take the anxiety.

BILL

He’s got his own vineyard though.

GABE

That’s right, that’s right.

DICK

Yeah, I just got to sell.

BILL

He’s got to quit going on those cruises when it’s time to pick.

DICK

Actually, we sell a lot of wine on those cruises.

GABE

Yeah, those late summer, early fall cruises all of a sudden start looking real appealing, don’t they? But clever marketing is part and parcel to what you’ve got to do anyway and you’ve got to be out there, I mean, you’re hitting the pavement, or the waves, that’s the next chapter in all this anyway.

DICK

Well, you’ve got to sell it to make it and we try to tell everybody that we are important, too. You get out there and after 30 years we’ve gotten a pretty good brand recognition nationally. It’s still always a challenge to make sure you’re in the right markets and the right place at the right time.

GABE

Now, the two of you have been doing this for a few decades here, is it challenging to have a partnership that works this long? I mean, there are a couple of partnerships out there, but for the most part it’s one guy or gal doing their thing, there have got to be, obviously, benefits for two guys getting along, having the same vision vintage after vintage after vintage.

BILL

We know each other’s strong points and we’ve let that evolve and I don’t tell Dick how to market our grapes.

DICK

You know, we’ve become like an old married couple, you know, we don’t talk and we don’t have sex. [laughter]

GABE

And that can make for a lengthy relationship, right? Which is the toughest, if there is such a thing, of the 28 that you’ve produced, is there one that’s tougher to sell?

DICK

Luckily we don’t make a whole bunch of Syrah and Rhone varietals, they’re a hard sell because there’s so much on the market and there’s so much competition from every other international market whether it be South Africa or whether it be mainly Rhône that by the time our Syrah gets to the East Coasts it’s comparably priced with Hermitage and they are more Francophiles on the East Coast.

BILL

We do three Syrahs, so we have the Estate Syrah off the Tinaquaic Vineyard and then the Williamson-Doré Syrah off Dick and Jenny’s Vineyard and then we do a Syrah called “Toasted Rope” which is a 85 percent Syrah, 15 percent Viognier co-ferm and that’s a pretty neat wine.

GABE

Yeah. Does the Tinaquaic Syrah taste differently, feel differently because it is dry-farmed?

BILL

Partially yes, I mean, the crop load is usually very light. I think we calced out that in the Tinaquaic Vineyard it comes out–if you took an average it came out to about a bottle of wine per vine.

GABE

Oh.

BILL

So, it’s a tough balance.

DICK

Which is not good.

GABE

Yeah, right. I’m such a big Syrah fan that I always find it interesting to hear that it is such a tough wine to sell. We live in an area where Syrah, particularly now that we’ve brought the Ballard Canyon AVA online, it is such a prime location to grow this grape. I think it’s such a great wine to drink and so it surprises me when I hear the challenge that it is to get it moving.

DICK

There’s just so much on the market.

GABE

Yeah, and not all of it maybe all that good.

DICK

A lot of it’s not all that good, but a lot of it is a lot cheaper.

BILL

We all had high hopes for Syrah 10, 15 years ago, and it has just never panned out. It’s a wonderful grape to grow and it does well year in, and year out. They make great wines. In Ballard Canyon, Santa Maria Valley Syrah does well and now even Santa Rite Syrah is doing very well.

DICK

And there’s so many interpretations of it. I mean, even, you asked Billy about the difference Tinacquaic and our Williamson-Doré. I personally find that Tinacquaic is white pepper and the Williamson-Doré is black pepper which you normally associate, but maybe the little bit of cooler climate in Foxen Canyon.

GABE

And Syrah seems to me as a rather forgiving, malleable grape. You know, you plant it in a variety of different spots, it still gives you some beautiful fruit to work with. That’s sort of what I like about it as well. I mean, there’s a spectrum from a consumer’s standpoint that is always sort of a neat surprise for me.

BILL

Yeah, definitely. The Syrahs from Happy Canyon–you can drink a Syrah from say, Starling, or a Syrah from Santa Rita. Two huge, huge, different wines.

GABE

Yeah. Well, as you can probably tell I’ve got this big grab bag in front of me, you know, The Dirt Don’t Lie grab bag. A couple of off the wall questions maybe just to kind of get the creative juices flowing, sort of dive in beneath the surface just a little bit. Any aspect of this gig that you just don’t like?

DICK

As far as the sales end of it, you know, the travel gets a little old. You know, when you’re on the road long periods of time and you get home from the weekend and you’re off the next week. I’m starting to do more wine dinners and less street work, you know? Going on and knocking on doors. So, for me, it’s just mainly gearing back on the areas that I don’t need to do and gearing up on the ones I do.

BILL

Growing in the business, expanding into the new facility, increasing production has made a lot more work and I’m getting to that point where I don’t want to work that long any–those long days anymore.

DICK

We’re not the Foxen Boys anymore. [laughter]

GABE

But I mean, it’s a testament to the fact that you’re putting out a product that people are responding very well to and so–

BILL

Well, the good side of that is that I’m able to make these wines and you’re always looking to make that wine that is going to make people kneel down in five or ten years and say, “Wow, what an experienced.” You know?

GABE

Karen MacNeil recently posted a very glowing review of a 1996 Pinot. It’s got to feel good that here’s a Pinot that is now going on well more than 15, 16, 17 years that made such an impact that you’ve got one of these great influential wine writers putting it out there that she sort of fell in love with this wine.

BILL

Yeah.

GABE

Feel good?

BILL

I was stoked.

DICK

Very excited, but at the end of the day we were going through some of our library wines and Billy pulled out a ’92 Sanford & Benedict which showed age. You definitely could see the color change, but it was–

BILL

Alive.

GABE

Yeah.

DICK

It’s alive, yeah.

BILL

It’s alive!

GABE

It’s alive, yeah. Bill seems to me like a very even-keeled guy. Does he ever lose his temper, Dick?

DICK

Well, maybe once or twice that I’ve known him with me around. I think mainly he’ll do it when my back’s turned. [laughter]

GABE

I’m sure he’s got his moments. Bill, if Dick was a grape what grape would Dick be?

BILL

Maybe Nebbiolo because if you’ve ever seen a Nebbiolo cluster or have been in the vineyard it looks like it’s full of hot air [laughter] but in the end it makes a wonderful, ageable wine.

GABE

Dick, same question. If you had to identify a particular grape with your friend, Bill Walthen here what would it be?

DICK

Probably I would say Sangiovese because he could be really acidic.

GABE

[laughs] So you both picked Italian varietals, very interesting.

BILL

Yeah, that’s one of my travel destinations. Piemonte is one of the most wonderful places in the world not just to drink, but to eat.

GABE

Yeah, definitely true. Now, we are in such great company here in Santa Barbara County. If there was another wine farmer that you could trade places with for, say, a week anybody come to mind?

DICK

Anywhere in the world?

GABE

Let’s keep it in Santa Barbara County.

BILL

You know what? I’d be really happy to trade with Chris Whitcraft right now.

GABE

Is that right? Yeah? What a great guy, huh?

BILL

Yeah.

GABE

Passed way too early and I think was–he started in ’85 just like you guys did. So he was part of that same wave of discovery and his focused remained pretty–I think toward the end there was some expansion, but really Pinot and Chardonnay were his calling cards, and there was a way that he did not deviate from his philosophy. Whether you agreed with it or not that was his unfiltered approach to the way he lived and the way he made his wine without excuses. And that’s just the way Chris was, right?

DICK

It’s funny because Bill and I knew him back when he was in Montecito and that wine shop–

BILL

Mayfare.

GABE

Mayfare, yeah.

DICK

Of course, the only thing he’d complain about then was Doug Margerum who owned the other wine shop.

GABE

Yeah, that’s right. Right. [laughter] All right, so I’ll ask you now, Dick, the world, you can trade places with anybody that’s in the wine farming business in the world, who would you pick?

DICK

Billy likes Italy, I would take Burgundy. I would probably, I don’t know, maybe Dujac or Comte de Vogue. They make so little wine you can’t even buy their stuff and when you can it’s like a thousand bucks a bottle. It’s just this small operation. Their winemaker, Francois, is the most philosophical winemaker I’ve ever met and it’s just–

BILL

Every barrel is his child.

DICK

Yeah.

GABE

Yeah, right.

BILL

You go in and taste with him in the cellar and it’s just phenomenal.

GABE

Yeah, it’s a neat thing to see that passion be as genuine as that can be, no?

BILL

Yeah, and it’s a good reminder when you go visit. You come home and say, “You know what? I need to be as personable with my barrels,” is what he has taught me.

DICK

No, it was amazing. I learned more from this guy, and we were there one day with Doug Margerum and Doug kept referring–we were tasting the current vintage and he kept referring back to a previous vintage that was like the ’05 or something and, “Is this going to compare? Is this going to compare? Is this going to be as big?” he kept asking Francois and Doug was very persistent and finally Francois turns around and he says, “With Pinot Noir you never have to shout to tell the truth.” And that was the whole thing. Every vintage is not going to be your biggest or what people consider the best to downplay the whole concept of conformity from year to year.

GABE

Speaking of magical places I’ll end with posing the same question to the two of you and I’ll start with Bill. You’ve done your last harvest and you’re knocking on the pearly gates and St. Peter welcomes you, but before you enter he says, “You can have any wine that you want and you can share it with anybody living or dead.” What wine would you pick and who would you be sipping that wine with?

BILL

How about some vintage Krug with my dad.

GABE

Dick?

DICK

Well, I’m still thinking here. Oh my God, what would I be sipping? How about an older Domaine Romanée-Conti La Tâche with my wife.

GABE

Well, Dirt Don’t Lie and neither does Bill Walthen or Dick Doré. It’s great to talk to both of you, sip a little Rosé with you. We’ll do it again soon I hope.

DICK

Great. Thanks a lot, Gabe.

GABE

This has been the Dirt Don’t Lie Podcast where we like to keep conversations with Santa Barbara wine farmers totally unfiltered. I’m Gabe Saglie, your host, Senior Editor for TravelZoo.com and wine columnist for the Santa Barbara News-Press. This podcast was recorded live at Erickson Sound Labs in the heart of the Santa Ynez Valley. Our executive producer is Wil Fernandez, and our original music is by Jacob Edward Cole. Want more? Check out DirtDontLie.com. Cheers.